I've Had Much Experience With Numerous Cults And Heresies
And The Reoccuring Dysfunction Of Each One Of These Is The Rejection Of The Sensical Plain Sense Meanings Of Bible Verses.
This Is Mostly Because They Have Allowed Religious Literature, Works, So Called Common Sense, Preconceived Notions To
Equal Or Surpass The Bible In Importance, Resulting In Scripture Being Subject To The So Called Clarification Of Their
Own Particular Brand Of Nonsense. Below I Will Begin To Use The Plain Sense Indicator To Evaluate These Dysfunctions. Presently
I'm Debating Mormons In Two Mormon Groups, One Group Is A Family Of Mormons That Moderates Non Mormons From Beginning
To End And Even Deletes Messages, The Other Is Unmoderated And That's Why I'm Now There. It Was Started By An Evangelical
But Now He Is Strangely Missing From The Debate. Presently I'm By Myself Debating Several Mormons. If You're Interested Send
Me An Email With 'Mormon Debate Group' In The Subject Box And I Will Give You More Information.
If The Plain Sense Makes Sense, Seek No Other Sense To Replace It, Lest You End Up With
Nonsense.
P'shat:
"The p'shat is the plain, simple meaning of the text. The understanding of scripture in its natural,
normal sense using the customary meanings of the word’s being used, literary style, historical and cultural setting,
and context. The p'shat is the keystone of Scripture understanding. If we discard the p'shat we lose any real chance of an
accurate understanding and we are no longer objectively deriving meaning from the Scriptures (exegesis), but subjectively
reading meaning into the scriptures (eisogesis)."
AND
"This is where another
(implied) meaning is alluded to in the text, usually revealling a deeper meaning. There may still be a p'shat meaning as well
as another meaning as any verse can have multiple levels of meaning." In Other Words, Childlike Faith (Matthew 18)
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Another Sense
To The Mormon This Verse Means That God Has A Spirit Not Is A Spirit. Now Why Christ
Didn't Say Has A Spirit According To Mormon Logic Is A Mystery.
Mormons Will Then Argue That The Mormon Religious Works Will Clarify That This Means
Has A Spirit Not Really Is A Spirit, That Spirit Is Really Matter Though The Holy Spirit Isn't Because He Indwells Believers.
() 'What A Web We Weave When We First Practice To Deceive.'This Allows For Eisogesis And The Thinking That Joe Smith
Is A Better Communicator Than God Himself (A Casual Reading Of The BOM Will Refute That) And For The Mormons To
Also Say That God The Father Has A Body Of Flesh And Bone.
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The Bible:
21 Jesus saith unto her, Woman, believe me, the hour cometh, when ye shall neither in this mountain, nor yet
at Jerusalem, worship the Father. 22 Ye worship ye know not what: we know what we worship: for
salvation is of the Jews. 23 But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh
such to worship him. 24 God
is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit
and in truth. (John 4:21ff)
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Plain Sense
God Is A Spirit, 'Pneuma Ho Theos' In Greek Means Just What It Appears
To Mean. In Fact The Context Shows That Rather Than Worshipping Here Or There, In This Mountain Or In That Temple
(John 4:21; Acts 17:24), God The Father (John 4:21,23) Is A Spirit Not A Body And Isn't Localized To One Place And Is Omnipresent (Jer.23:24; Ps.139:7-9). Mormons Don't Believe That God The Father Is Omnipresent Because He Has A Body Of Flesh
And Bone. (Journal of Discourses 6:345)
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Nonsense
Mormon Arguments Against The Plain Sense Of John 4:24:
1) The Book Of Mormon Says:
2) Kerry The Mormons Pasted Article
3) Spirit Is Matter (D&C 131:7),
4) Joe Smith Saw The Father And Son, Who Both Had Bodies
5) That Worshipping God The Father 'In Spirit' Means With
All We Are So God Being A Spirit Doesn't Limit God To Spirit Either.
6) That The 'Spirit' That The Disciples Thought They Saw
Was An Evil Spirit And That Thought Was What Jesus Was Refuting. (Luke 24:36ff)
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The Bible
After The Resurrection: "But they were terrified and affrighted,
and supposed that they had seen a spirit. 38 And he said unto them, Why are ye troubled? and why do thoughts arise in your
hearts? 39 Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as
ye see me have. 40 And when he had thus spoken, he shewed them his hands and his feet. 41 And while they yet
believed not for joy, and wondered, he said unto them, Have ye here any meat? 42 And they gave him a piece of a broiled fish,
and of an honeycomb. 43 And he took it, and did eat before them." (Luke 24:37ff)
"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and
the Word was God. 2 The same was in the beginning with God. 3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing
made that was made. ...12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them
that believe on his name: ...14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of
the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth....18 No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which
is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him." (John 1:1-3,12,14, 18)
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The Plain Sense
The Bible Says: "No Man Hath Seen God (The Father), But God
The Son Has Explained Him." (John 1:1-3,12,14,18)
Purpose Of Incarnation Is To Explain God The Father And To Live
And Die For Us. (1 John 4:1-3)
The Mormon Argument Takes Away A Major Reason For The Incarnation Of
God The Word, Because If God The Father Is Flesh, Then What's The Importance Of God The Son Being And Coming In The Flesh?
Scriptural Refutations Of The Mormon Arguments In Left Hand Column:
2) Refutation Of Kerry The Mormons Article Here.
3) If Spirit Is Matter, According To #3 In Left Hand Column, Then How
Can The Holy Spirit Indwell Us As The Doctrine And Covenants Says? (D&C 130:22)
4) Refutation Of Mormon Point #4 Left Hand Column Here.
5) God Is A Spirit So We Must Worship Him In Spirit And Truth. 'A Spirit
Doesn't Equal 'In Spirit'.
A Spirit Is The Metaphysical Reality Of The One Who Is A Spirit, 'In
Spirit' Is How We Must Worship God Who Is Spirit Or 'A Spirit.'
6) Did The Disciples Think That They Had Seen An Evil Spirit, Rather
Than 'A Spirit' In General And Does The Answer Change What Jesus Said The Nature Of A Spirit Is?
No, Every NT Reference To An Evil Spirit Or Evil Spirits Is Always Qualified
With A Modifier Like, 'Evil', 'Seducing', 'Unclean'...., So The Disciples Weren't Supposing They Had Seen An Evil Spirit When
They Saw The Resurrected Jesus And That Would Not Change The Fact That Spirits Don't Have Bodies.
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Nonsense
Mormon Arguments Against Reading The Context And Believing The Plain
Sense Of All Related Scripture.
1) god Means God
2) Scripture Says We Are One As Jesus And The Father Are One
3) Joe Smith Says We Evolve Into godhood:
"God Himself Was Once As We Are Now, And Is An Exalted Man, And Sits Enthroned In Yonder Heavens. This
Is The Great Secret....I Say, If You Were To See Him to-day, You Would See Him Like A Man In Form-Like Yourselves, In All
The Person, Image, And Very Form As A Man....It Is Necessary That We Should Understand The Character And Being Of God,
And How He Came To Be So; For I Am Going To Tell You How God Came To Be God. We Have Imagined
And Supposed That God Was God From All Eternity, I Will Refute That Idea, And Will Take Away And Do Away With The Vail So
That You May See." JD 6:3-pg. 4 Joseph Smith, April 6, 1844...It Is The First Principle Of The Gospel To Know For A Certainty
The Character AOf God And To Know We May Converse With Him As One Man Converses With Another, And That He Was Once A Man
Like Us; Yea, That God Himself The Father Of Us All, Dwelt On An Earth The Same As Jesus Christ Himself Did; And I Will Show It From The Bible....(JD 6:4, Joseph Smith, April 6, 1844)...
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The Bible
"They know not, neither will they understand; they walk on in darkness:
all the foundations of the earth are out of course. 6 I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are
children of the most High. 7 But ye shall die like men, and fall like one of the princes.
8 Arise, O God, judge the earth: for thou shalt inherit all nations." (Psalm 82)
"The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that
thou, being a man, makest thyself God. 34 Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods? 35 If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken; 36 Say
ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of
God?" (John 10)
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The Plain Sense
Refutations Of The Mormon Method Of Taking These Verses Out Of Context
Here, Here And Here.
1) First Definition Of The 'gods' Being Talked
About Here: "But of the fruit of the tree which is in the
midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die. 4 And the serpent said
unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die: 5
For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good
and evil. 6 And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the
eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her
husband with her; and he did eat. 7 And the eyes of them both
were opened, and they knew that they were naked; and they sewed fig leaves together, and made themselves aprons. ...22 And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know
good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever..."
(Genesis 3)
Being 'gods' Here Is 'Knowing Good And Evil' Not Omnipotence, Omnipresence Or Omniscience Which The
Three Persons Of The Trinity Possess.
2) The Biblical Teaching Of 'Oneness' Is Not The Pantheistic Teaching. Oneness
Means United To, Of The Same Essence.
The Same Chapter That Says That Christ Prays That We Are One With Each Other As Christ Is With The
Father, Recognizes A Distinction Between The Father And Son But A Oneness That Existed Before The World Began. (John 17:5)
I Am 'One Flesh' With My Wife But I Am Not Her As She Is Not Me (The Walrus) Kook Kook A Choo. (Ephesians 5:31ff)
Jesus Didn't Say That We Be One With Him As He Is With The Father. That Is Impossible.
3) Joe Smith In The Left Hand Column Clearly Says He Believes That We And
Even God The Father Evolves From Manhood To Godhood. This Is Sheer Nonsense, Contradicts The Bible And Explains Why This Extra
Biblical Nonsene Taints The Clear And Plain Sense Of Scripture For Them.
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